More on God's Election

When the Lord foreknows someone, He does not look down into the hallways of time and sees if that person will accept His gracious offer, but it is more that God before the foundations of the world Knew those He has elected with everlasting love and compassion. It was because of God's free pleasure He had set on those he Had elected, that they were predestined to life eternal.

But some will ask then why do you then do missions. If God obviously predestines some to salvation on the basis of his Divine pleasure on them, what is the point? The point is that my fellow man and brother, that God had not only predetermined the elect unto divine pleasure and the reprobate unto divine displeasure, but He also ordained the intended means by which men shall also be saved which is through Christ and Him alone by grace through faith.

Well how do you account for sin and evil in the world? Or does God election and reprobating mean that the elect are sinless, where as the reprobate are not? (if the question is clear). By no means. God election is his acceptance of certain individuals for not in something in them, but for God's good pleasure alone and His rejection to certain individuals was not because of something in them, but of God's pleasure alone. When Adam and Even fell in the garden both the reprobate and the elect fell. Therefore giving the reason for the condemnation and the saving act of God. Those who are elected will be ensured of Salvation, while those who were rejected will not repent and believe the good news.

Well then does that mean that God then prevents the reprobate from believing in Him? (this question deals with the aspect of Equal-ultimacy). By no means, God does not have to create unbelief in those who are fallen already. He simply leaves them to their own state of depravity. Whereas with his elect He regenerates the spirit so that they will believe in Him. As R.C. Sprouls simply puts, "Positive has to do with God's active intervention in the hearts of the elect. Negative has to do with God's passing over the non-elect.
The Reformed view teaches that God positively or actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to insure their salvation. The rest of mankind God leaves to themselve. He does not create unbelief in their hearts. That unbelief is already there. He does not coerce them to sin."

It still sounds like you are rejecting missions and human responsibility. It may seem that I have forsaken missions and human responsibility. But the fact is however I have not forsaken these biblical creedances or commandments. As Romans 10 says that Faith comes by hearing and hearing from the word of God. How then can anyone hear the good news if no one is sent? and if no one is sent then how will anyone believe?
Romans 10:14-17 "How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!' But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, 'Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?' So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

I can't believe this doctrine of election. It seems too harsh and makes God seem like a tyrant.
Well no one says that you have to believe in this doctrine for salvation. For Christ Righteousness is imputed by grace alone through faith in Him alone, who fulfilled the law on behalf of the sinners so that they may repent from their sins and be saved in Him alone. However, I would ask you to seriously look at what you are rejecting and look at the Scriptures. If you see this doctrine of election truly in the scriptures then it means that you ought to humble yourself before God and trust in His sovereignty. I would tell you to look at various versus of Scripture that speaks of it (Acts 13, Ephesians 1-3, Galatians 1, Romans 8-9, Jeremiah 31:3)

Paul's election for the sake of preaching the gospel

"But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles..." Galatians 1:15-16

We are told here that election is before Paul was born. Else where in Romans 9 we are told that God elected Jacob and Reprobated Esau before they werer not yet born and before either one of them had done anything either good or bad - God chose Jacob for Divine pleasure and Esau for Divine displeasure. Therefore I may further say that here God before Paul was born set him apart for vessels of glory from vessels of destruction. God was therefore please that He might reveal Christ to the Apostle. There is another thing I want to mention here and that is the fact that reveal may also be something that means to unveil. That is God unveiled Paul's darkened eyes that Paul might see the glory of Christ crucified for Sinners. As it is said that Christ death is to be a mystery for those who not believe and who are void of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 1-2). This divine election was so that Paul might preach the gospel to the Gentiles. As Men and Women of the Grace of God we should be humbled for salvation was not of our own doing or any fore seeing of us doing anything. It was all of God and not of me. Therefore Humble yourselfs in obedience to God's gracious work, which He prepared beforehand that We should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10) as we are His workmanship in Christ! God be praised! May His truth be accepted and applied today.

On faith, covenant, and grace of God

The thing about faith is that it is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9). However, this faith as much as it is a gift from God is not a stand alone faith. But as part of the Covenant of grace is one where it is a new mind (Romans 12:1-2).

"It is to be remembered that efficacy of faith does not reside in itself. Faith is not something that merits the favour of God. All the efficacy unto salvation resides in the Saviour. As one has aptly and truly stated the case, it is not f...aith that saves but faith in Jesus Christ; strictly speaking, it is not even faith in Christ that saves but Christ that saves through h faith. The specific character of faith is that it looks away from itself and finds its whole interest and object in Christ. He is the absorbing preoccupation of faith." - John Murray

"But Christ is the condition of the covenant, as he is to be applied unto us, and must be embraced by faith, for every condition of the covenant is Jesus Christ already embraced, and applied unto us by faith." Robert Rollock

Although faith is an exercise by us in which we embrace Christ Jesus as part of the Covenant of Grace between God and God's Elect, it is definately sustained by the Holy Spirit of God.

What I mean by stand alone faith - is that faith that is just partamentalized as I believe in the color red, I believe that my car will start, and finally I believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. No, but it is something in which is wrought about by the renewing of one's mind. This means all of the mind is effected by this faith, which in turn effects the way of our living and understanding. (Ephesians 5)

On Law, Jesus, and Paul

"Ohhh, ok, my mistake. I have been trying for many years to have it explained to me. If you understand it, please explain it to me. I would appreciate it very much.

Oh, and I should have posted this in my last reply and I didn't. I don't like to say things without showing the verses. I apologize for not posting it before but this should explain why I said you are going against what the bible says:

In Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus stated: '17 Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the [way of] the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18For, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.'

However, Paul, who claimed to be a disciple of Jesus, systematically cancelled the laws. In his letter to the Romans, chapter 7:6, he stated, "But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit."

This was a question raised to me back when I first started debating on my own on various websites. I felt the call in my life to start defending the faith back in 2005-06ish. After I recently tried looking up my blog site with just using 'prisonerofjoy' I found this particular forum I had once been on. The question is clear. The person who had raised the question saw some sort of tension or contradiction between the two parts. To be clear they saw Matthew 5 as a contradiction with the verses from Romans 7. The question is simple does Paul cancel out the Law? My response would be No. Another important question before I get into the reason why is is there a contradiction in these verses? I would say No, again. The Romans 7 verse is speaking of soteriological. While the Matthew 5 verse is speaking of the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies. In other words Christ is the promise Messiah. Furthermore Christ is the one who being God was able to fulfill the Law. For God cannot sin, even so Christ is also Man, thereby able to live and die perfectly on behalf of Totally Depraved Men who are by nature dead in their sins. What this means is that if Christ was not God and simply human then on some strange account that he obeyed God's commands perfectly He would not have been able to impute righteousness to those who Trust in Him Nor would he be able to die on behalf of those thus diverging God's Wrath which was righteously set on Man. But He would just be fulfilling what God had commanded for Himself.
Onto Romans 7:6 What Paul is speaking of here is that the Law for sinful man could not save anyone however. The Law was only meant to show us our Inability to obey God. Paul says, that "having died to that which held us captive" meaning that the Law only condemns. Paul will later on say that the Law is good. So Paul is not against the Law. But how did we die? well in the next part of the verse it says that we (Those in Christ) serve in the new way of the Spirit. In Romans 8 Paul discusses that it is only by the Spirit can one walk according to the Spirit and so Please God. We are not saved by works but by grace through faith... for the purpose of good works (Ephesians 2:8..10) for God's glory (Ephesians 2:7). It is only through the Spirit that we may worship God (John 4:23-24, Philippians 3:1-3).
So now if I have not answered it already. Does Paul cancel out the Law? Certianly not. in Romans 6 Paul speaks of Christians being corporately part of Christ through Christ's Death. Just as Christ died to sin and was buried and was raised for the glory of God the Father. So Redeemed men and women in Christ have died to the bondage of sin and so are raised so that they ought to and will live for the glory of God the Father. But Paul later on will ask the question if it is by grace then are we to sin so that grace may abound? The answer is no. Because Grace enables us to live in accordance to God's standards not that we are justified by the Law for no one can be justified by the law.

Editors note: I will probably look over a commentary later to make sure I have not misapplied something. But I think over all it is good.

Venting Something out.

YOU gave me knowledge. Yet you were not true to your words. We were a picture of what a true relaitonship ought to be based on. Yet you were not true to that even still.

On Equal Ultimacy

Scripture says that God hands over the unrighteous men and women to the lust of their own hearts who distort the truth of God and fashion for themselves idols from what has been clearly percieved because God Himself makes it known to them Romans 1:18-32. What does this passage tell us about God? That God does not hide. Scripture says that, "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them" V. 19. That God gives people over to the lust of their hearts. Three times it is said that He gave them up to the lust of their hearts (Vs. 24, 26, 25). Notice how this action by God is a result of something. So because people supress the truth of God The wrath of God is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. So these actions are a sign of God's wrath. All men hate God Romans 3 says they do not fear God and because of this they do evil things. But perhaps also because they do evil things they also do not fear God.
This is different from John 4:23-24 which speaks of the opposite side of what is happening here. For here we see that God seeks true worshipers who worship God in spirit and in truth. True worshipers are those who do not supress the truth and also have right emotion or response to the truth of God. Moses Silva in his commentary said that Philippians 3:3 correlates with John 4:23-24, which also correlates well with Thesis of Romans 1:16-17, which is antithetical to Romans 1:18-32. But Silva says that it is by the Spirit of God we worship for  it is by the Spirit we are circumcised. J.I. Packer said in his listing of the purpose of the Spirit of God is to glorify Christ Jesus. We are lead by the Spirit when Christ is lifted up high. For the reason is that we are saved by Christ righteousness alone and not anything of our own. This is partly the reason why Islam and Calvinism cannot be united as positing the same god. For in Islam, god is not acting upon his nature. In Calvinism he is and so there is comfort that God will not say one thing one moment and something else the next. Also when God saves His people he does not save according to works done in the flesh, but according to His pleasure. Dr. Giesler is not the first one to say that Calvinism and Islam are the same, I believe there are others who do a cursery reading of the Qur'an and Scripture and Calvinism text.
But going back to Romans we see that God is not working in the individuals to do evil. But God is giving them up to their own lust. Supralapsarianist claim that God elected some for salvation and reprobated others for damnation before either one of the clay lumps did anything good or bad. Then that God created all of them and then that God permitted the fall so that Both the Elect and the Reprobate are fallen and have a need of salvation. So God decreed that Christ who is both God and Man to win the salvation of the Elect, and to apply that salvation to the elect by the Spirit of God. But what you see here is that the Reprobate are fallen, so when God passes them by He does not work anything in them (like evil) but that he leaves them in their sins. For unbelief is not the reason for condemnation, sin is and God is still just for condemning one even if He never hears the gospel news. Which is also what Romans 1 teaches us. While in the elect He works His salvific grace in them so that they will believe, will repent, and become like Christ.  

R.C. Sproul in his book Chosen by God pg. 142-43 tells us what Equal Ultimacy is and how it does not fit in the Reformed view of Double Predestination:

"There are different views of double predestination. One of these is so frightening that many shun the term altogether, lest their view of the doctrine be confused with the scary one. This is called the equal ultimacy view.
Equal ultimacy is based on a concept of symmetry. It seeks a complete balance between election and reprobation. The key idea is this: Just as God intervenes in the lives of the elect to create faith in their hearts, so God equally intervenes in the lives of the reprobate to create or work unbelief in their hearts. The idea of God's actively working unbelief in the hearts of the reprobate is drawn from biblical statements about God hardening people's hearts.
Equal ultimacy is not the Reformed or Calvinist view of predestination. Some have called it 'hyper-Calvinism.' I prefer to call it 'sub-Calvinism' or, better yet, 'anti-Calvinism.' Though Calvinism certainly has a view of double predestination, the double predestination it embraces is not one of equal ultimacy.
To understand the Reformed view of the matter we must pay close attention to the crucial distinction between positive and negative decrees of God. Positive has to do with God's active intervention in the hearts of the elect. Negative has to do with God's passing over the non-elect.
The Reformed view teaches that God positively or actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to insure their salvation. The rest of mankind God leaves to themselve. He does not create unbelief in their hearts. That unbelief is already there. He does not coerce them to sin. They sin by their own choices. In the Calvinist view the decree of election is positive; the decree of reprobation is negative.
Hyper-Calvinism's view of double predestination may be called positive-positive predestination. Orthodox Calvinism's view may be called positive-negative predestination."

I found this on google books.

God's will in salvation

"The reprobate are rejected supra lapsum by the will of God but damned on account of their sin; and though a man be predestined to salvation supra lapsum, he is still responsible to seek greater sanctification as a member of the covenant of grace." Pg. 101

New Position in Christ Alone

We may know Christ saves us from the guilt and sin and its penalties, however, for those believing in Christ for His righteousness, God has also placed them positionally in the heavenly places. As redeemed people we must also consider our new position, who we are in Christ as well as the benefits of His righteousness. This I may call corporate personality - I was dead to sin, but now I am alive unto grace so I may live to glorify God the Father just as Jesus the Son lives for his glory. Ephesians 2:6 - Beautiful !

Humility and Christ and His righteousness

I like this one: "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." It reminds me of the situation with Jesus when and why He ate with tax collectors and sinners. Or perhaps maybe the prayer in Luke 18:9-14. I pray that I may take hold of all the attitudes in Matthew 5:1-12. Romans 10:1-4 - Jesus Christ is the sinners only righteousness. Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to the cross I cling.

By the way in Matthew 9:9-13 (Where the dispute about Jesus eating with Tax collectors and sinners is also given) You do not ever want to be the Pharisees (who have no need of a saviour). The Contrast between the Pharisees and those who were tax collectors and sinners is not that the Pharisees were well and the tax collectors and sinners were not. It is that the Pharisees in while they were doing "good' things they did not see their own need of a Saviour to redeem them upon the cross and so be given Christ righteousness through faith in Christ alone. It was only the Tax collectors and sinners who know their need of saving. For the Pharisees Jesus finds no place in them to stay. This is significant - for it shows 1. the Pharisees were lost (we see them as men who are saved or at good status). They were lost, that means there will be those who do not see their need of a Eternal Divine Saviour, but will continue in their pride of self-righteousness. What to do with them? (I suppose just deal with them as if you were trying to witness to anyone else) 2. Christ finds his home in those whom have humbled themselves in obedience to God's only remedy of Salvation. It is in them who are blessed forever more with the presence of God - to worship and sing His praises like that of the Seraphims in Isaiah 6.

Supralapsarian View that I see fit

(1) God's decree to glorify himself (Nature and Being)
(2) as a means to that goal, the decree to the election of some and the reprobation of others;
(3) the decree to create those elected and reprobated;
(4) the decree to permit the fall; and
(5) the decree to provide salvation for the elect through Jesus Christ wrought about by the Holy Spirit

Down below however is a list of "different views." I would hold closer to the first one. However, It must be said that all of them stress that the election and reprobation of men are unfallen and uncreated - which is contrary to the Infralapsarianist view.

First few Chapters of Romans. Chapters 1 and 2 (Not completed yet)

Paul wrote the letter to the Romans, in A.D. 57. His purpose in doing so was to seek cooperation of the Romans for his projected mission to Spain as suggested by chapter 15:24; 28. It is to my knowledge and understanding, though you may find other well knowledgeable and scholarly sources that differ – like Schriener, that Paul wrote his theological letter so that the Roman church would help. The theme of this letter is righteousness by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone (Romans 1:16-17)

Romans 1:1-7 Paul says that he was called not on the basis of works but on the free grace of God in order to do ministry or for the gospel sake. Verse 1 Paul is a servant for the gospel. 2-4 speaks about this gospel. Verse 2 tells us that God planned this gospel through the prophets (1 Peter 1:10), which shows that this is not something random, or without purpose. Verse 3 says that the subject of the gospel is Jesus Christ. And finally verse 4 says that he was declared by the Spirit to be the Son of God and was resurrected. He says that he has received grace in verses 5 and 6 for his apostleship and His goal is to bring about as John Piper says, obedience that comes from faith that is by grace all for his glory or namesake. Verse 6 I have chosen to put verse 6 together with verse 5 because it is saying amongst them or including them the gentiles in Rome. Finally Paul closes by blessing them. First of all he says those who are loved by God, receive grace (empowerment) and peace (with God) from God the Father and from God the Son, no one else.

-How does one earn grace? (Can’t it is a free gift from God)

-How should you live then, what is the purpose of grace? (Humility) Have you ever received a gift from someone (?) you did not expect? (If yes) What was your response or reaction? (Gratitude, thankfulness, humbleness) (1 Corinthians 4:6-7)

-For what purpose is all of this? (For God’s glory)

Romans 1:8-15 Paul says in verses 8 that he thanks God through Christ, because of their faith, which is known to all the church Paul has planted is known. In verses 9-10, Paul says that he prays in order to visit them in Rome. The reason is found in verse 11, because he longs to see them, in order to be mutually built up in the faith 11b-12. In verse 13-15 Paul wants to preach the gospel to everyone. Verse 13, the reason for his visit is so that he may reap a harvest amongst them and also the other gentiles, because of his apostleship received by grace or empowered by grace he is obligated to share the gospel to both the wise and the foolish.

-What is your goal or purpose in life? (is it to glorify the God of the salvation you profess to have?)

-How should you relate in your relationships with one another (with those who are saved and those who are not saved)?

Romans 1:16-17 Paul gives the reason why he yearns to preach the gospel from verse 15 in verse 16-17. He says that the gospel is the empowerment to save for it is the righteousness of God from faith in Christ and not of ones works. (John 3:16, Romans 10:1-4)

1:16-17 How does the gospel save sinners? (it saves by Christ sacrificial death on the cross for the payment of your and mine sins so that you and I may by faith receive the righteousness that is from God by grace).

But why faith?

What is faith – trust in God, believes him at who he is and what he promises, and obeys Him, but faith also knows God. Jeremiah 9:24, John 17:3, Hebrews 11:1

By faith we know God intimately (through prayer and reading of his word) and so by knowing God we know ourselves and our need for a saviour. So by faith we trust in God that he will do what He will promise and so by faith we also obey.

Romans 1:18-23 Paul speaking of the gentiles says all men have no excuse against the wrath of God even those who are without truth. In verse 18 he says God’s wrath is revealed against all godliness of men who supress the truth. Verses 19 and 20 give the reason why they are without excuse. Verse 19 says God has plaining revealed himself, because it is he who has shown it to them. Verse 20 further states the conclusion and explaination in much detail about how God has revealed himself. Verses 21-23 state the reason for their distructiveness. 21 they knew God, they knew their sins were wrong, but they did not honor Him as God, and their thinking and their hearts became darkened. Verse 23 says they started worshiping the created beings rather than the creator.

God acted, he made it evident to them. All the men and the women know God verse 21 yet their knowledge of him is disorted or supressed. Everybody supresses the truth and therefore they do not glorify God or thank Him. Therefore they are without excuse.

-Do you think this is true? (say one of your friends (making it personal) is on a desert island and all they had was two trees and the ocean surrounding them, now they know that there is somehow a god, but they do not know who he is or what he is like. They have never heard of the gospel. Based upon your friends limited knowledge will God save them?)

-Do you ache and long for the lost to come to saving knowledge of Jesus Christ?

Romans 1:24-25 Paul says that because of this God gives them over to their own evil desires and so their sexual conduct became impure.

Romans 1:26-27 Paul says that the men and women went even further in their sexual misconduct. 26 says that God gave them up to the actions or their desires or passions that were dishonorable to God. The reason how this is shown is first of all through their women. Verse 27 speaks of the men who were inflamed with evil desires as that of the women.

Romans 1:28-32 Paul says that God gave them up even further and so men (and woman) became evil in all of their actions. Verse 29 –31 speak of the nature and conduct of their own debased minds and actions. Verse 32 simply says that they not only desire to do these things, but they praise and approve of others who do them as well.

- Is God just in judging men?

- The most rebrobate sinner carries about within him a knowledge of his just exposure to the wrath of God. Are you doing and endorsing godly things (things that pleases God)?

John Piper uses an illustration of the adult magazine company who not only loves it’s sin, but also endorses and approves of those who do it.

- What if you professing to be a Christian (one who trust in Christ for righteousness before God and enjoys Christ with your whole heart and soul and mind and power and lives for his glorious passions) start to live out your Christian life in such a way and pray before them and on their behalf that makes other also long to enjoy God in Jesus Christ and so that God by his grace and mercy he might save them?

So Paul just got finishing telling us that his apostleship is based on God’s powerful grace for the preaching of the Gospel to the Greek and the Jews. Then he informs us that the Gentiles commit evil acts and are condemned.

Romans 2:1-5 Paul says that the Jews who practice the same things will not escape God’s wrath for any reason. In verse 1 Paul tells us the reason why the Jews are without excuse, for they who judge the gentiles also commit the same things. Verse 2 tells us that God’s judgement is in accordance to the truth with those who practice such things. Verses 3-4 Tells us what the Jews are doing. In verse 3, the Jews continued the action that is found in verse 1. Schriener says that they were self-decieved. Verse 4 Paul says that they scorned the kindness of God. Verse 5 closes by saying that it is because of their hardness of heart that they are storing up wrath for themselves on judgment day.

Romans 2:6-11 Paul now exclaims that God shows no partiality in His judgements. Verse 6 gives off a reason for verse 5 and starts off the section. 7 – 10 gives us the explaination of verse 6. 7 starts off with those who do good works will be granted eternal life. 8 gives us the contrast that those who persist in unrighteousness will face God’s wrath. According to verse 9 the person who does evil will have tribulation and distress, while the person who does good will experience glory and honor and peace (10). Verse 11 gives us the reason for verse 6. Because there is no partiality with God, God will repay each person according to his or her works.

- God shows no partiality in His judgements, Can someone be saved by doing good deeds?

Romans 2:12-16 Paul continues and says that God will judge both the Jews who have the Law by the Law and the Gentiles without the law with the law on their hearts. Verse 13 gives the reason clause for 12 and simply says that it is the doers of the law who will be justified. Verse 14 gives a reason clause for verse 13b, it says although the Gentiles do not have the law and yet do by nature occasionally what the law demands they become the law. Thus (15) they have the law written on their hearts. Since also they have the law written on their hearts they feel badly for not obeying the norms moral value. Verse 16 indicates the extent of God’s judgement, He will judge the secrets of man’s hearts and thus it is not mere possession of the law nor occasioned obedience that will save man.

- Have you ever thought that because you were close to your father that when mother was mad at you that you could run to him?

- What does this text say about Jesus? What does it say about man?

Good philosophers

· Harry Frankfurt, Paul Helm, Nelson Pike, Peter Kreeft, Robert Cain, John Martin Fischer, and John Taylor to name a few.